Author Topic: Compatability between new USB3 hosts and legacy USB2 devices  (Read 14252 times)

tkafafi

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Compatability between new USB3 hosts and legacy USB2 devices
« on: March 14, 2012, 05:07:37 pm »
My understanding is USB3 is intenteded to be backwards compatible with USB2 , so the intent is to be able to plug in a usb2 device (e.g keyboard) in a usb3 host (e.g. computer port) and it should all still work the same as before.

1.
That is the intent. I'm wondering how well that is achieved in practice? USB3 computers and devices have been available for more than a year, have you heard of any reports of incompatabilities ? If so, is there a common thread between the failures (e.g certain manufactures or certain device classes are particularity problematic ...)?

2.
USB3 keeps an extra set of the older usb2 signalling to gurantee compatability on the electrical interface. But how is compatability on the software side guranteed with the new XHCI controller. I know XHCI can handle all rates but I assume that it has different register specification than the usb 2 EHCI controller, so the host controller drivers for those would be different and incompatible. Is that true ?
But to still beable to communicate with usb2 devices using XHCI then there must be a higher software layer above the host driver that has a common interface for USB3 and USB2 to ensure they are compatible from a software prespective. Where is that layer ?   Is that at the windows class drivers ? Are devices even aware which controller (XHCI or EHCI) they are talking too ?
I'm wondering if even though there is a point with a common interface, the XHCI may still cause subtle differences on the interface relative to EHCI (e.g the timing of the messages or ...) that may be enough to cause a failure. Do you think this worry is justified ?

3. I guess the industry has been through this before a decade ago when it transitioned from usb1 to usb2. What are the lessons to learn from that history ?


Thanks

Jan Axelson

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Re: Compatability between new USB3 hosts and legacy USB2 devices
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2012, 05:46:09 pm »
As you mentioned, SuperSpeed and USB 2.0 speeds use different buses. On device attachment, a USB 3.0 host detects devices that don't support SuperSpeed and enumerates the devices on the USB 2.0 bus. A USB 2.0 host knows nothing about SuperSpeed and enumerates all devices at USB 2.0 speeds.

For the most part (isochronous transfers may be an exception), host applications and class or vendor-specific drivers don't have to know or care what speed a device uses. Class drivers just request data transfers, leaving it to the lower-level drivers to figure out how to do it and at what speed.

Devices don't have to know what type of controller they are talking to. Devices just need to respond to events and requests on the bus. Host controllers are responsible for complying with the USB specs. If devices aren't trying to second-guess the host controllers, it shouldn't matter if the host controllers don't behave in an identical way as long as they comply with the specs.

Jan

tkafafi

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Re: Compatability between new USB3 hosts and legacy USB2 devices
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2012, 07:39:39 pm »
Thanks Jan very much for your response and insights. I agree that in theory it seems that everything should be compatible.

I'm just wondering how well that pans out in reality though. Have you heard of any incompatabilities ?

So was the transition from USB1 to USB2 in the past fairly smooth or were there lots of bumps along the way ?

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Tamer

Jan Axelson

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Re: Compatability between new USB3 hosts and legacy USB2 devices
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2012, 12:25:36 pm »
I don't know of any issues. I'm sure there have been some...

Adding high speed went smoothly as far as I know. An issue with labeling was due to the fact that USB 2.0 encompasses low, full, and high speeds, yet the public equated USB 2.0 with high speed. So you could buy a "USB 2.0" device and be disappointed if it wasn't high speed.

Jan

tkafafi

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Re: Compatability between new USB3 hosts and legacy USB2 devices
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2012, 06:07:39 pm »
Thanks Jan.

I believe the labelling loophole has been closed in USB3. So to be USB3 compliant the device/host needs to support superspeed AND all the lower speeds as well.

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Jan Axelson

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Re: Compatability between new USB3 hosts and legacy USB2 devices
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2012, 06:24:00 pm »
A USB 3.0 host has to support all speeds. A device just needs to support one other speed besides Superspeed, but if the device needs SuperSpeed to perform its function, it can use the lower speed to inform a USB 2.0 host of that.

Jan

tkafafi

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Re: Compatability between new USB3 hosts and legacy USB2 devices
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2012, 05:26:33 pm »
Hi Jan,

Thanks for pointing out the speed requirement on the USB3 devices.

Just to confirm I understood that correctly, the spec requires device support a MINIMUM of one other speed? I.e The device may also support all the speeds if it is designed that way. There is nothing in the spec that prohibits the devices from supporting all speeds, correct ?

Do existing usb3 devices (e.g usb 3 thumb drives) usually support all speeds or just the top 2 (superspeed and highspeed) ?
I would have expected supporting lower speeds would come for free once you have a higher speed grade designed in, so everybody would do that.  Is that not the case ?

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Jan Axelson

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Re: Compatability between new USB3 hosts and legacy USB2 devices
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2012, 09:24:11 pm »
A device can support more than two speeds, but USB 1.x hosts are rare these days, so it's unlikely a SuperSpeed device would need to support full speed in addition to high speed, and low speed is mainly limited to devices like mice that need more flexible cables.

Jan

Barry Twycross

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Re: Compatability between new USB3 hosts and legacy USB2 devices
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2012, 07:52:10 pm »
I'm pretty sure there's a prohibition in the USB 2 spec which prevents a high speed capable device from also supporting low speed. So 3 speeds is going to be the limit.

tkafafi

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Re: Compatability between new USB3 hosts and legacy USB2 devices
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2012, 02:50:12 pm »
Thanks Jan and Barry for your responses.